Curse

The Josip · Jan 12, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Alright, I'm a mesmer running various builds and don't like to restrict myself to 1 skillbar. Which is why I don't personally use Discordway. I've tried sabway which was okayish, I tried spiritway which was so-so (it gets the job done but too much micro for me).

Right now my team is:

Me/x (me)
E/Mo (personal bodyguard, ER hero; 14-9-9)
N/Mo (Jagged Bones, Bone minions, Shambling, Nova, Masochism, Putrid Bile, Dwayna's Sorrow, Res chant; 16-9-10)

Mesmer henchman
Earth henchman
Monk henchman
Monk henchman

What I'm looking for in 3rd hero build:

* No micro except in rare cases
* As much damage as possible
* Versatility - it needs to work in most game areas, and should be compatible/synergize with heroes others take when I play with them
* Speed - I'm not going to specially "prepare" for every fight. C+space and here we go. Mob to mob. Speed buff would also be awesome, but not much use if it handicaps the hero so that once in battle the battle itself lasts too long and I don't progress any faster.

What I tried:

* SoS Rt - I gave up. I know many like to have channeling on one of the heroes, but keep in mind that Splinter Weapon will be useless in most cases as my party has no melee and heroes don't use it on minions. I had problems with SoS itself; sometimes hero casts it just out of reach of the mob we're fighting and he won't recast it closer until the old spirits die or we move far enough, which means I spend entire fight without most damage. Other problems are standard - spirits hit obstacles. I'm fully aware how strong spirit spam is, I play it myself sometimes, but hero AI is quite annoying. Oh and, they suck at using Painful Bond, when they use it that is.

* Mesmer interrupt hero. It's okayish, I like to watch hero cast spells and interrupt, but it just felt underpowered. I used AP domination. Oh and, I know many like to invest in Smiting, but as I said, no melee means no use for SoH.

* Curses necro. More or less sabway one. It's difficult for me to estimate the benefit of this one, but problem I had with it was SS seemed useless in many cases - hero would put it on target just before death. Im not interested in damage mitigation skills, or heal skills, but mainly damage, so SS+barbs was more or less only thing this hero had. I wasn't too impressed. However, if someone has good Curses skillbar that would go with my team and thinks I should definitely try it more, I'm ok with that.

* Another MM. It works in some areas but it's too situational. I would rather avoid it unless someone convinces me otherwise.

* Melee hero. Ya, I tried them, they aggro everything and tend to die a lot because they run forth and get spiked. I think they can be quite fun actually, so if there's some build that would fit, I'm ok with it if it counters tricky AI. The problem is that the rest of the team just isn't set to support this guy with SoH, Splinter and other stuff.

Actually, I'll stick with Curses, it seems best option from what I tested so far. Gwen was atrocious.

But I could still use help with skillbar:

SS, Barbs, then what? Right now I have also SoLS, Enf Blood, Rip Enchant, Veng Weapon, Life, FomFlesh. If I use PwK then I lose 40/40 equipment bonuses, hate that unless it's really needed. Life is there because of badly needed party heal in case of AoE. Not sure what else so I put Veng weapon. 14-9-10.

Posts Merged by Cebe: Please use the button rather than double posting!

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Try combining the SoS and the curses rit. SS is somewhat of a waste because theyll only use it on the target that you're trying to kill. Run something along the lines of this
Rt/N
12+1+1 Channeling
12 Curses
3 Spawning

1.SoS
2.Splinter Weapon
3.Spirit Siphon
4.Ancestor's Rage
5.Barbs
6.MoP
7.Enfeebling Blood
8.FomF

Even though heroes are not entirely reliable, this is one of the most valuable hero bars you can bring to an area. You can swap out the nec skills for prots, para shouts, resto heals, spirits, etc. Even if you don't have a physical, all your heroes/hench will wand whenever possible, so splinter is still put to use.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 13, 2010, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I agree with the guy suggesting rt/n hybrid above. Or you could make it a n/rt replacing SoS with icy veins, spirit siphon with sols and fomf with dps or rip enchant. I don't know what the deal is with IV, maybe they don't use it often enough. On paper it is one of the best skills for a hero in pve. I never pve without it, but typically it's on a IV resto bar(IV, sols, ff, plague sending, wow, sp.light, life, dps).

Personally I think you run way too much defensive stuff. I like(or liked rather, haven't pve'd in a while...) to run with as little healing as possible without wiping. Typically I get by with 1 copy of spirit light over 2 humans and 6 heroes. I don't know about the ER hero, it's the latest craze I guess so it probably works. Could afford to run something more offensive than dwaynas sorrow on the mm maybe?

The Josip · Jan 13, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Dwayna's Sorrow is for party heal which I feel is sometimes badly needed. But if there are better suggestions I'm open to them. It's also a good place where I can put Fall Back when there's need for it. Or utility like Frozen Soil. I hate going to some areas without that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Even if you don't have a physical, all your heroes/hench will wand whenever possible, so splinter is still put to use.

Hmm, ok. I was watching them though and they didnt cast Splinter much in that case. But who knows, I might use a summon here and there, so they might put Splinter on it, hopefully. I will try it again and see how it goes.

So MoP is worth it without AP?

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Yes, MoP is an extremely powerful skill regardless of AP, although a 40/40 set does help. With 11 minions running around it'll get some good triggers as well. If you don't feel like running /n, you can always go /p with things like FB! and SYG! On your minion bomber, I suggest replacing Rez chant with Aegis. You don't need to get dwayna's that high to be effective, so dropping the points in prot will help greatly.

I don't agree on the matter of IV. The problem with it's use in HM is that everything has a ton of armor, making IV do much less than it would originally seem.

As for the E/Mo, I never really got into them, always favored my N/Rts more. Heroes have the uncanny ability to drop PwK the second that the mass aoe hits, healing your party back up instantly. The other amazing thing about N/Rts is that they don't need an elite to be effective at healing. I usually run either Corrupt Enchantment or Spiteful Spirit on my resto nec when not running discord.

Betrayer of Wind · Jan 13, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

What I've always used was a R/W(actually 2 of these) with
Expert dexterity|read the wind|d-shot|savage shot|keen arrow|sloth hunter|watch yourself|res sig
12+1+1 exp 11+1 marks leftovers on tactics.Flatbow optimal.

Believe it or not,watch yourself helps quite a bit to reduce all pressure and aoe received.They also interrupt well and pump out dmg(very useful if you're using AP and having to switch targets constantly because they die too fast).
Barbs/MoP necro especially useful when using those too.

If you're not using AP and want some fun with Fevered dreams,switch the build to:
Incendiary arrows|Apply poison|d-shot|savage|screamming shot|lightning reflexes|serpents quickness|res sig
Nice condition spam for fragility and constant daze with FD,also switch the bow for recurve and atributes to
exp 11+2+1 wild 11+1 marks 8+1.

Steps_Descending · Jan 13, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Hmm, ok. I was watching them though and they didnt cast Splinter much in that case. But who knows, I might use a summon here and there, so they might put Splinter on it, hopefully. I will try it again and see how it goes.

So MoP is worth it without AP?

I'd drop splinter too, I knwo AI will use it on you if you wand. But I haven't checked for other heroes. But there's also minions, so if you have teh spare slot, I'd bring it. If you have a spare slot.

I'd be tempted to say MoP is worth it if you micro it for tougher fights. But I've never been quie fond of it myself (pure personnal taste). I generally bring barb in priority and MoP if I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Personally I think you run way too much defensive stuff. I like(or liked rather, haven't pve'd in a while...) to run with as little healing as possible without wiping. Typically I get by with 1 copy of spirit light over 2 humans and 6 heroes. I don't know about the ER hero, it's the latest craze I guess so it probably works. Could afford to run something more offensive than dwaynas sorrow on the mm maybe?

In the same vein, what do you mean by ER bodyguard? If it's a proter, I'd probably drop one of the monk hero.

Back on the last slot, depending how much you think you can benefit from a tank (as in decoy instead of meatshield). YOu could setup a bow or spear warrior, you wouldn't have the melee prob, but get an aggro focusser. I know I like to have one with me, but that depends on how much you can capitalise having mobs starting the fight balled up. Basically, how many nuker type you have. For now, only you and the elem hero currently benefit from it.

edit : btw, nice topic Jossip, it's been a while since I've had 2 post entering while I was typing. Wonder why this is more active than "Next Skill Balance" in riverside...??

The Josip · Jan 13, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I think Next Skill Balance has been beaten to death. And nothing yet from ANet.

Anyway, I can drop one of the henchie monks, but everyone suggests differently. Upier says two. I usually used 2-healer backline myself. If I drop one of the monks, what to take? This is for HM, so how much dmg Cynn would do I don't know; rangers have line of sight problems, warriors their own, and Eve is disastrous to my party every time I take her (although on paper she looks ok).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

As for the E/Mo, I never really got into them, always favored my N/Rts more. Heroes have the uncanny ability to drop PwK the second that the mass aoe hits, healing your party back up instantly

That's true and PwK for me is the only advantage of N/Rt over EMo but overall right now I go with EMo. AoE will hurt but since I'm playing with daze a lot lately (FD build, or AP Technobabble), I'm trying to solve that problem. I still try NRt sometimes but EMo is more 'universal'. It fits almost any area and team build.

smilingscar · Jan 13, 2010, 02:24 AM // 02:24

having curses in some form would definitely help you. I usually run them myself on my Me/n but it think a necro could fill out your heroes nicely. You're right though, SS is a wasted elite. And I don't really see much in the necro line that I would sub in for it. I say either go with a x/n with a primary elite or go N/x with a secondary elite. Here's some off the top of me noggin.

Rt/n: Barbs, MoP, EB, PB, SoS, Bloodsong, Spirit Siphon, Flesh of my flesh.

Me/N: EB, Barbs, MoP, VoR, Emp, Overload, Power Drain, Res Sig. (skill split: 7 FC, 7 Ins, 10 Crs, 13 Dom)

N/p: EB, Barbs, MoP, Shadow of Fear, SoLS, Stand your Ground!, It's just a flesh wound, We Shall Return! (skill split: 12 Crs, 8 SR, 10 Com, 2 Mot)
You could drop a skill for "Fall Back!"

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I agree with the guy suggesting rt/n hybrid above. Or you could make it a n/rt replacing SoS with icy veins, spirit siphon with sols and fomf with dps or rip enchant. I don't know what the deal is with IV, maybe they don't use it often enough. On paper it is one of the best skills for a hero in pve. I never pve without it, but typically it's on a IV resto bar(IV, sols, ff, plague sending, wow, sp.light, life, dps).

Icy Veins in HM sucks. The damage it deals is COLD damage. You might aswell take a searing flames nuker.

For a caster ball setup a curses nec will do. SS, I'm afraid to say, > Icy Veins.

Spiteful Spirit
Reckless haste
Enfeebling Blood
Mark Of Pain
Barbs
Defile defenses
Flesh of my flesh
Optional

Could spec into any secondary, Rit or monk, for a bit of extra support. Give your casters spears to activate MoP. Also as a sin, you can run sin spam with AP, should you choose to try this build.

The Josip · Jan 13, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

A bit off-topic, but, if my Aegis lasts 8 seconds, and I've 20% enchant staff, does Aegis last 10 or 9 seconds (I assume it's rounded)? That is, having Aegis on 8 sec (does, lower attribute) would give the same result as Aegis on 9?

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

A bit off-topic, but, if my Aegis lasts 8 seconds, and I've 20% enchant staff, does Aegis last 10 or 9 seconds (I assume it's rounded)? That is, having Aegis on 8 sec (does, lower attribute) would give the same result as Aegis on 9?

Keep Vekk at 9 prot, what exactly is he running?

The Josip · Jan 13, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I was referring to MM actually, since someone said I should lower Healing (Dwayna's Sorrow) and put Aegis in.

Vekk.. i change his build all the time, everyone has his version I guess. Right now he's:
14-9-9
ER, Aura, PS, SB, RoF, Dismiss C, Patient, Heal Other
Before that I was trying variant with D Kiss and Life Attune, and testing Infuse.

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2010, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I was referring to MM actually, since someone said I should lower Healing (Dwayna's Sorrow) and put Aegis in.

Vekk.. i change his build all the time, everyone has his version I guess. Right now he's:
14-9-9
ER, Aura, PS, SB, RoF, Dismiss C, Patient, Heal Other
Before that I was trying variant with D Kiss and Life Attune, and testing Infuse.

Yeah, bring infuse instead of Heal Other and be done with testing. I also take shield guardian instead of Patient spirit. Infuse is all you need.

You should drop healing altogether on your MM, Dwayna's sorrow never kicks in when I want it, Aegis is much more worth-while. Also, I prefer using Aura of The Lich simply because of the +1 Death and instant manipulation of corpses is useful for areas where there are enemy MMs and it's just faster overall. Easier to upkeep an army, and you always enter a mob with ~3 minions atleast.

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Josip, basically what you're getting here is everyone's personal opinion, and, although it might have been what you were looking for to start with, you're still going to need to do quite a bit of testing on what works best for you. The basic setup you have is fine, and all that's left to do is tweak bars until they fit your playstyle. Test the things that have been suggested in this thread, and find a combo that you like and that works well. One person's optimal setup doesn't work for everyone

Arrogant Bastard · Jan 13, 2010, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Yeah, bring infuse instead of Heal Other and be done with testing. I also take shield guardian instead of Patient spirit. Infuse is all you need.

You should drop healing altogether on your MM, Dwayna's sorrow never kicks in when I want it, Aegis is much more worth-while. Also, I prefer using Aura of The Lich simply because of the +1 Death and instant manipulation of corpses is useful for areas where there are enemy MMs and it's just faster overall. Easier to upkeep an army, and you always enter a mob with ~3 minions atleast.

But heroes are so stupid when using infuse, especially with minions.

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

But heroes are so stupid when using infuse, especially with minions.

I've been using the same setup on Vekk for a while now, and I'm not complaining, Arro. You have no faith in infuse!

It doesn't matter if Vekk willingly spams it because that's why you're using ER. I used to use a build with 3 heals and PS and SB, but stacked full of prots means Vekk is switching players every second and negating alot more damage.

The Drunkard · Jan 13, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Try combining the SoS and the curses rit. SS is somewhat of a waste because theyll only use it on the target that you're trying to kill. Run something along the lines of this
Rt/N
12+1+1 Channeling
12 Curses
3 Spawning

1.SoS
2.Splinter Weapon
3.Spirit Siphon
4.Ancestor's Rage
5.Barbs
6.MoP
7.Enfeebling Blood
8.FomF

I'd ditch mesmer for a meele hench and use this for your third slot. I run a team similar to the one you posted, though I either run an AP or FD bar myself

The Josip · Jan 13, 2010, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Yeah, bring infuse instead of Heal Other and be done with testing. I also take shield guardian instead of Patient spirit. Infuse is all you need.

I tested both and now am testing without them. I'll explain why I currently don't use these skills. Shield Guardian looks great on paper (and probably on human ER). In reality, I noticed hero doesn't spam it as he could. Also, with other anti-physical skills, it wasn't high priority. Infuse I tried, really, but someone said it's problematic when using minions. I didn't notice that, but I noticed henchman monks waste their energy on ER when he does Infuse, and it negates the advantage of the skill. That, and ER seemed to have problems recovering from infuse; ie not spamming few skills to get back to max health, so I had to micro. Risking a spike was another reason.

I guess I can test it more, what's your full build on ER? And do you micro him, or rarely? You're using MM along with him?

Quote:

You should drop healing altogether on your MM, Dwayna's sorrow never kicks in when I want it, Aegis is much more worth-while.

Currently I use both on that MM, which meant dropping rez. It's difficult for me to track the effect of Dwayna's so I could use more opinions on that. I think it should be worth it, for some other reasons - enchant spam for instance. Less chance that enemy AI will strip some useful enchantment.

Quote:

Also, I prefer using Aura of The Lich

I was testing that too. I never had PvE necromancer so it's difficult for me to evaluate some skills. In the forum, many put Jagged Bones. I always saw that as a waste of the skill to be honest, so tested both IV and Discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Josip, basically what you're getting here is everyone's personal opinion, and, although it might have been what you were looking for to start with, you're still going to need to do quite a bit of testing on what works best for you. The basic setup you have is fine, and all that's left to do is tweak bars until they fit your playstyle. Test the things that have been suggested in this thread, and find a combo that you like and that works well. One person's optimal setup doesn't work for everyone

Yea, that's what I usually do. And I like to test bits here and there. The reason I created the thread is that I was completely lost on what to use on the 3rd hero. With some guidelines I can easily tweak the build. Whenever I use new build, I always spend some time monitoring heroes use those skills. I pay attention to whether those skills need micro or not, whether hero has too little energy, or too much energy, and then adapt. It's fun part I like in GW.

The Josip · Jan 13, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Ok I've still a problem with Splinter weapon on Xandra. She uses it only on party members, I tested with golem summon. No Splinter for him. And he was perfect, having a scythe.

Xandra will cast Splinter on me if I switch to spear. But since I'm too busy casting anyway, on me it's wasted. Thus the only way to utilize Splinter is to put Spear on Xandra and Olias (Vekk is set to avoid combat). I had spear before on MM but switched to staff some time ago.

So, what I want to ask is, would spear+focus be better than full 40/40 set? I think it could actually, but just want to be sure. What it would achieve would be:

* AoE will be less dangerous as two heroes with spears would be slightly forward (I guess). Downside, Olias gets in the line of fire (not good, MM and rezer). Xandra doesn't seem to move much forward as she starts to casts spells earlier.
* Olias has 20% enchant mod anyway, so he would only lose /20 for ability to inflict damage with Splinter and trigger MoP and Barbs.
* Xandra would lose 20/20 for +30hp, weakness mod (+33%) for Enfeebling Blood, and ability to inflict damage with Splinter and trigger MoP and Barbs.

Edit: after further testing, I'm not sure Splinter is any good in this build. Both Olias and Xandra are casting almost all the time. Splinter weapons on both of them expire after ~20 seconds, they simply don't use it. They wont strike with the spear in these 20 sec, or rarely. And even when they do, it's just difficult to see how much damage was done. Not much I'd say, because it's usually done on single targets with no one else nearby. Moreover, because she spams Splinter now on herself and Olias, and I even saw it on ele henchman, Xandra runs out of energy. In other words, she's using Splinter often, but not as often Barbs or MoP. Maybe I should test it in other areas.

Feedback?

And if I should replace Splinter, what should it be? Bloodsong? Or some Curses spell? Or Rez? Agony (314dmg, if spirit doesn't get directly hit; someone also reported it confuses AI a bit; recharge is not that good, but she will be spamming Barbs anyway)?